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proWargames.ru • Просмотр темы - Правила 1.2 Infidel и Men of Iron - Counter-Charges

Правила 1.2 Infidel и Men of Iron - Counter-Charges

Сообщение Александр Карасёв » 01 июн 2013, 00:30

Меня всегда "терзали смутные сомненья" на счет невозможности Counter-Charges против стрелков, стреляющих в KN/HC/MM в упор (как то это не логично, особенно с учетом некоторой "перекаченности" стрелков).
В недавно вывешеных правилах версии 1.2 к обоим играм, этот момент вроде пояснен:
1) Men of Iron
- п. 11.5. "A defending, Mounted MAA unit may change facing one vertex,
after making a successful Counter-Charge attempt dieroll (11.6),
in order to effect Counter-Charge, but may not change facing
during the Counter-Charge. The Counter-Charge path must be
through its frontal hexes and the Counter-Charged unit(s) must end
in the unit’s frontal hexes. Unlike a Charge, a Mounted MAA unit
can Counter-Charge a unit in an adjacent hex.
Counter-Charges
must meet all restrictions in 11.3 paragraphs 3 and 4. A unit which
passes a Counter-Charge DR does not roll for Charge Reluctance."
- п. 13.3. параграфы 3 и 4 "Mounted MAA may not Charge across rivers or steep slope
hexsides, nor may they Charge a unit in a Woods, Marsh, City,
or Rough hex. Mounted MAA may not Charge into or across
terrain which they are prohibited from moving into. They may
Shock into/across those hexes/sides without a Charge (see 10.0
SHOCK), as long as there is not an NA in the Shock/Charge
column of the TEC for mounted units. A Charge may not cross a
hex in an enemy ZOC, but may end in a ZOC hex.
The Charging unit must have a path free of friendly or enemy
combat units to the target at the time the Charge is declared. The
path cannot be shared with other Charging units. This path must
include the hex, adjacent to the target, in which the Charging unit
will end its Charge."

2) Infidel
- п.13.6. "Heavy Cavalry and Knights may attempt to Counter-Charge when
Charged, Shock attacked, or they suffer missile fire through their
front or flank hexsides. Disordered Heavy Cavalry and Knights
or Heavy Cavalry and Knights units that began the Activation
in the ZOC of another enemy unit may not attempt to Counter-
Charge. Unlike a Charge, a Heavy Cavalry or Knight unit can
Counter-Charge a unit in an adjacent hex.
Counter-Charges must
meet all restrictions in 13.3."

- п.13.3. "Knights and Heavy Cavalry may not Charge across rivers or steep
slope hexsides, nor may they Charge a unit in a Woods, Marsh,
City or Rough hex. Knights and Heavy Cavalry may not Charge
into or across terrain which they are prohibited from moving into.
They may Shock into/across those hexes/sides without a Charge
(see 12.0 SHOCK), as long as there is not an NA in the Shock/
Charge column of the TEC for mounted units. A Charge may
not cross a hex in an enemy ZOC, but may end in a ZOC hex.
The Charging unit must have a path free of friendly or enemy
combat units to the target at the time the Charge is declared.
The path cannot be shared with other Charging units and must
include the hex, adjacent to the target, the Charging unit will
end its Charge in."


Так всетаки, по стреляющем в упор стрелкам проводится Counter-Charges или нет? Заранее спасибо за ответ.
Александр Карасёв Не в сети


 
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Сообщение Александр Карасёв » 01 июн 2013, 12:02

Еще несколько вопросов, касающихся "Стены щитов" и "Шилтрона".

1) В правилах однозначно указано, что PK и DM могут сформировать Стену щитов и шилтрон в начале активации, до того, как данные отряды что-то сделают. С учетом свойств данных построений это означает, что в данную активацию отряды уже не смогут переместиться.
Вопрос, а после выхода отрядов из данных построений в начале активации, они могут перемещаться в ту же активацию?

14.1. "The only units that may be eligible to use Shield Wall are Pike
Infantry and Dismounted MAA. Their leader may, at the beginning
of the game (during setup) or upon activation (and before
doing anything else), order these units in his command into (or
out of) Shield Wall. Place (or remove) a Shield Wall marker atop
all (eligible) units in his command (even if Out of Command) to
so indicate."

Сценарий BANNOCKBURN "Pike in schiltron may leave that status at the start of any activation
in which they are not adjacent to an enemy unit. They may
be disordered when they do so, and they regain their printed
Movement Allowance."

2) В правилах, касающихся Стены щитов указано: п. 14.1. "Mounted units may not Charge through the Frontal hexside of a Shield Wall unit; they may Shock normally."
Вопрос.
Может ли отряд MM провести само действие Charge по фронту отряда выстроившего Стену щитов и решить его по Таблице Шока (т.е. именно выполнить передвижение в Фазу Шока при Чардже на 1 или 2 гексагона до цели)?
Либо вообще действие Charge против фронта отряда, выстроевщего Стену щитов, запрещено (т.е. даже нельзя в ходе выполнения Charge в Фазу Шока переместиться к фронту отряда, выстроившего Стену щитов), и чтобы атаковать такой отряд, нужно в ходе Фазы обычного движения подвести кавалерию (MM) вплотную к фронту такого отряду, и в Фазу Шока, атаковать данный отряд по Таблице Шока.

3) В правилах, касающихся Шилтрона указано:
- Сценарий BANNOCKBURN: "Mounted units may not Charge the Frontal hexside of a unit in Schiltron; they may Shock normally, but do so only upon
passing a Charge Reluctance dieroll. Use the section of the Reluctance Chart that refers to Scots Schiltrons."
- Сценарий FALKIRK: "Mounted units may not Charge thru the Frontal hexside of a Schiltron formation unit; they may Shock normally, but do so only upon passing a Charge Reluctance dieroll. Use the section of the Reluctance Chart that refers to Scots Schiltrons."

Вопрос тот же, что и про Стену щитов.
Может ли отряд MM в Фазу шока провести само действие Charge по фронту отряда выстроившего Шилтрон, при этом бросив кубик по таблице Charge Reluctance, и в случае успеха атаковать по Таблице Шока (т.е. именно выполнить передвижение в Фазу Шока при Чардже на 1 или 2 гексагона до цели)?
Либо вообще действие Charge против фронта отряда, выстроевщего Шилтрон, запрещено (т.е. даже нельзя в ходе выполнения Charge в Фазу Шока переместиться к фронту отряда, выстроившего Шилтрон), и чтобы атаковать такой отряд, нужно в ходе Фазы обычного движения подвести кавалерию (MM) вплотную к фронту такого отряду, и в Фазу Шока бросить кубик по таблице Charge Reluctance, и в случае успеха атаковать по Таблице Шока?

4) В правилах, касающихся Шилтрона указано:
Сценарий BANNOCKBURN и FALKIRK "If they are adjacent to another pike unit in schiltron their Flank hexsides are treated as Frontal. But they do have a Rear, and are subject to any dieroll modifiers for being attacked through the rear."

Т.е. если к примеру есть два соприкасающихся любой стороной отряда, выстроенных в шилтрон, то у данных отрядов все Фланги считаются Фронтом?
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Сообщение Алексей Пупышев » 01 июн 2013, 19:36

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Сообщение Александр Карасёв » 01 июн 2013, 21:54

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Сообщение Алексей Пупышев » 02 июн 2013, 06:38

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Сообщение Александр Карасёв » 02 июн 2013, 15:27

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Сообщение Александр Карасёв » 04 июн 2013, 00:49

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Сообщение Sergey.Kosarev » 18 сен 2013, 16:51

По-моему, это говорит о плохом качестве правил. За 8 лет существования серии могли бы гораздо лучше описать эти моменты. Я тоже столкнулся с непониманием этой части правил при изучении Kulikovo.
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Сообщение Кирилл » 23 сен 2013, 15:33

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Сообщение Sergey.Kosarev » 24 сен 2013, 13:10

Я пообщался с Ральфом. Он согласился, что правила в этом абзаце сформулированы неясно и внес исправления.
Новая редакция:
"A unit must end its Counter-Charge with all attacking units in the Counter-Charging unit’s frontal hexes or it may not Counter-Charge."
http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.1dcdfe40/1578
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Сообщение Sergey.Kosarev » 24 сен 2013, 13:25

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Сообщение Кирилл » 25 сен 2013, 12:35

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Сообщение Sergey.Kosarev » 27 сен 2013, 19:06

Какие могут быть обиды, Кирилл.
Играть больше - я только с удовольствием.
Вообще, я варгеймер-новичок. Нахожусь в состоянии "накупил много варгеймов - с кем же теперь в это все играть?"

Собственно, стоило только написать что ищу напарника, и мне уже написали. Так что, вероятно, на следующей неделе, таки сыграю.
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Сообщение Игорь Лукьянов » 27 сен 2013, 19:27

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Сообщение Sergey.Kosarev » 30 сен 2013, 17:52

Спасибо, Игорь! Уже зарегистрировался. Тоже буду очень рад познакомиться!
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